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by a more general discussion I want to

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get your thoughts about the stay at home

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orders in general because the attorney

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that we had on mark Muser it was his

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view you know California has in the

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California Constitution of clause

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specifically about individual liberty

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there's all kinds of provisions in the

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in the in the Bill of Rights that apply

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to various types of liberties but he was

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just really challenging a stay at home

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order altogether that requiring everyone

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to stay at home and restricting their

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liberty there is a constitutional right

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to Liberty and he was citing cases

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during other pandemics where the

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question was somebody was quarantined to

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their home and because they supposedly

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had the virus and the person said hey I

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don't have the virus you can't

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quarantine me you've got no probable

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cause or reasonable cause to believe

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that I've got the virus and it was an

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individual challenging their individual

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quarantine and so it was his view that

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you know but there's no precedent for

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saying that everyone must stay at home

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regardless of what you whether you have

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the virus or not that to say that

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implies to the entire state of

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California regardless of your age or

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risk factors your health condition

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whether you live in a mountain village

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or in downtown Los Angeles that everyone

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must stay at home even healthy people

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it was his view that that is an

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unconstitutional infringement on Liberty

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do you have thoughts about that I do it

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was saying I saw it somebody had made a

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post along the lines that you know a

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quarantine is when you restrict the

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liberty of somebody who has a contagious

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disease tyranny is when you strike the

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liberty of people who are healthy you

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know it's it's very it's interesting and

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one of the main reasons just by way back

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on that I've been bringing these

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lawsuits is I feel that this is going to

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become the new norm right is this

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pandemic certainly is something unique

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but it's not unique to have these you

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know these flu seasons that some can be

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if I worse and others where we're going

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to run up against you know the the

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challenges

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there are some Prudential parts here I

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think you're gonna have to get a judge

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number one who's going to be willing

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enough to say okay I'm gonna you know

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I'm going to strike down this executive

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order and is this gonna cause you know

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additional harm regardless of whether or

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not it's constitutional you know a good

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friend of mine Andy McCarthy who writes

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for National Review and you see him on

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Fox and so forth he was a lifelong

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prosecutor and he wrote a real

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interesting piece when he was looking at

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over history and the more that there

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that there's a panic in the public

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there's there's a a more willingness of

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the courts to uphold restrictions on

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Liberty during that time whereas as

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things tend to wane you there's there

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tends to be more of a willingness of the

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courts to want to want to step in I

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personally feel like we've reached that

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point where the initial panic is kind of

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subsided I think I think Americans you

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know we're good neighbors by our nature

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we're always willing to help out our

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fellow man our neighbor whether you know

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we heard stories of thousands of health

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care workers you know essentially

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running to the sound of the guns in New

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York to help out there without pay and

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and being subject to getting the virus

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and but we're also the same people who

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you know who threw tea in the Boston

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Harbor right so there's there's this

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this conflict as it were between okay

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we're willing to be we're willing to

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help out and to promote the public

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interest and the public good but when

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when the restrictions that impose on us

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not to feel tyrannical I think you're

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gonna start to see a shift in the in the

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public and we saw that just last week in

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Michigan with the large rally in Lansing

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and so I think in many respects the

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courts kind of take that temperature as

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well and I think we're gonna find that

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early on there might be less willingness

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to strike down these things later on

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there's as we're moving on and seeing

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what the data is and so forth there may

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be a stronger willingness to do that

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well there's several cases and and just

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kind of getting little bit more to the

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point one of the seminal cases was a

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decided by the Supreme Court the

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Jacobson case in 1905 where there was an

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outbreak of smallpox and in Cambridge

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Massachusetts

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there was a state law that was being

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enforced by the city that people

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required to get vaccinations and the

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there was individuals who would

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challenge that that it wants to you know

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the government to you know infringe upon

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their liberty in that way to actually

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have to take medication by by order and

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the Supreme Court upheld that so they're

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the courts give far greater deference to

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the executive during these during these

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times of pandemic and crisis and so

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forth but in that same case that the

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court also made clear that if there

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isn't a real or substantial relation of

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the restriction to the actual satisfying

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the government objective or if it is

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plainly a direct impalpable violation of

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fundamental law fundamental liberties

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then it's the courts obligation to step

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in and to say so

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so getting support I think these these

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overall restrictions on Liberty I think

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do go overboard and and when you look at

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the specifics like here in Michigan and

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and this is really our our we have to

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loss we had two lawsuits one we've

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already resolved favorably with a

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stipulated order from the court the

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governor had to back down and

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acknowledge that my clients had a First

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Amendment right

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we had a pro-lifer on a public sidewalk

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outside of an abortion center holding a

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pro-life sign and preaching one of them

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15 city of Detroit police officers and

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eight cruisers showed up for this one

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pro-life from the public sidewalk

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meanwhile the executive order and he was

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cited he was given a criminal citation

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that's the thing to remember these are

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not suggestions by our chief executives

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and certainly here in Michigan if you

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violate this order it comes with

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criminal sanctions you are it is now a

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misdemeanor which is punishable by fines

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and imprisonment so we got to bear that

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in mind that these that these are

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criminal laws that than now imposing

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upon us you've received a citation for a

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misdemeanor violation yet under the

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executive order the governor allows

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expressly allows people to jog on

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sidewalks write bicycles on sidewalks

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walk their dog on a sidewalk if you're

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gonna allow those types of exceptions

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but then you're gonna violate what is a

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fundamental liberty interest that's a

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problem and the court should step in and

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say so

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so there's there's it's really it's a

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different

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question whether broadly these day at

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home orders are unconstitutional

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you know I'm likely there's going to be

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challenges coming out there my lawsuits

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are more specific dealing with the

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specific clients and the real

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irrationality of some of the

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restrictions but there is a there is

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case law that grants you know far

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greater deference to the executive under

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these particular times and again a lot

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of it is you know people always say

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justice is blind it's not we all know

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right if you watch any Supreme Court

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justice confirmation hearing is that

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about you know the law and being blind

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to justice or is about politics so it's

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very much in in that in the courts I'm

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not immune from what the public

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consensus is out there and so I think

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more as more things shift and we start

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to see that maybe this virus isn't as

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bad as we thought maybe there's a lot

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more people who've had it and have yet

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get over it I think you're gonna start

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seeing people who are gonna say you know

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this this quarantine is starting to feel

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like tyranny and and they're willing to

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stand up and fight it and speak out

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against it and I think likewise the

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courts are gonna be more willing to step

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in and say yeah this is a this goes too

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far let's talk about that Jacobsen case

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since that seems to be the key precedent

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for what's going on today first of all

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it's a case that's over a hundred years

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old I don't know what the makeup of the

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court was at that time but - and we'll

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get into that just in a minute but it is

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a situation where it was a vaccine

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required for all to reduce the

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likelihood of the spread of a disease

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right so and the court upheld that so I

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guess that tends to tell you that yes

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perhaps a governor today can order

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something that applies to everyone

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regardless of risk factor because of the

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risk of this pandemic I mean is that

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what they're gonna hang their hat on

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they're gonna say that vaccinating

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someone is the equivalent of ordering

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someone to not leave their home well I

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think in in the case of Jacobson right

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because the court made the point that it

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has to be you know have a direct and

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substantial relation to to the problem

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and certainly there it was a vaccine

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that was directed exactly to the

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you know the smallpox itself so the

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further you get away from its direct

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relation like again that using the

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example here in Michigan the the

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Michigan governor is prohibiting

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individuals who own property up north to

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travel to their their own homes their

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own residences up north to move from

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literally from populated areas where

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there might be a greater chance or risk

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of them catching the virus to a more

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secluded you know their their hunting

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camps or lake camps up in northern

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Michigan

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but and I'm representing two clients

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that was sued challenging this provision

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they one for example lives in Saginaw in

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their their cottages in shall avoid

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County which is further up north on the

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state of Michigan under the executive

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order you could still dry from you know

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from Saginaw to shall avoid Connie and

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go to convenience store and buy a lotto

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ticket they haven't shut down the lotto

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I mean that's bringing money into the

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into the coffers you could drive to a

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pet store up there and literally buy you

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know food for a goldfish you could drive

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up there and get gasoline but you can't

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drive up there and and go to your own

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property you could only drive up there

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and jog on the sidewalk around your

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house but as soon as you walked into

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your house it's a criminal misdemeanor

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so that's where I know with these these

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rules have to be have to be directed to

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the actual harm and and not not provide

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all these exemptions cuz he's exempt

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shion's undermine the very rationale to

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begin with and their objective and when

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you're doing so in a way that restricts

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liberty for example you know under the

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executive order in Michigan she

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specifically and purposely did not adopt

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the critical infrastructure guidance the

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latest one by the federal government of

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March 28th and and made it very plain

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and explicit and kept the march 19th

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guidance March 28th guidance made it

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clear that gun shops gun ranges and the

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likes are critical infrastructure

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they're part of your second Amendment

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right to defend yourself she

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specifically specifically included them

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as essential businesses in the state of

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Michigan so again I could drive out

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tomorrow to a pet store and get food for

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a goldfish but I can't drive to a

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firearm store and buy ammunition or

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firearms that's my second Amendment

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right so when you when you look at

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Jacobson these things I think going to

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be very spec you know facts specific you

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look up Jacobson you can say all right

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this is there was a direct and

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substantial relationship to getting a

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vaccine to the virus that it was in fact

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causing the death and the

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in the the pandemic at that time whereas

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you look at these restriction here in

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Michigan for example you gotta say okay

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why why is the lotto still open why why

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is the marijuana business is still open

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I mean she's got the marijuana

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businesses still let me go buy marijuana

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you can go buy liquor but you can't buy

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a firearm I could drive to shall avoid

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and do all sorts of things but I can't

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go to my own home so I could in court

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frankly if you had a home for and you

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lived in Chicago and you had a summer

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cottage up in northern Michigan you

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could drive from Chicago and go to

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northern Michigan but if I live in the

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state I can't go to my property there's